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	<title>Comments on: Blogging and Free Speech Rights of Public Employees</title>
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	<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/</link>
	<description>“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”  Albert Einstein</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Scott McLeod</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-283</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott McLeod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 05:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-283</guid>
		<description>Has there been a classroom speech case since Hazelwood that's gone in favor of a K-12 teacher? My oft-hazy memory is that pretty much every case since then has extended Hazelwood's 'curricular speech' reasoning to teacher speech as well as that of students. In other words, whatever academic freedom rights K-12 teachers had before 1988 are now gone unless specifically explicated in a collective bargaining agreement, district policy, or state statute. Am I incorrect on this?

As a postsecondary instructor, my academic freedom rights are strong. But if I returned to K-12, I shouldn't expect to have any, I believe. Justin, I'm in for an article (starting in the fall) if you are!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has there been a classroom speech case since Hazelwood that&#8217;s gone in favor of a K-12 teacher? My oft-hazy memory is that pretty much every case since then has extended Hazelwood&#8217;s &#8216;curricular speech&#8217; reasoning to teacher speech as well as that of students. In other words, whatever academic freedom rights K-12 teachers had before 1988 are now gone unless specifically explicated in a collective bargaining agreement, district policy, or state statute. Am I incorrect on this?</p>
<p>As a postsecondary instructor, my academic freedom rights are strong. But if I returned to K-12, I shouldn&#8217;t expect to have any, I believe. Justin, I&#8217;m in for an article (starting in the fall) if you are!</p>
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		<title>By: Marshall</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator>Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 16:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-282</guid>
		<description>Thanks to both Jon and Justin for clarifying for me.  I agree that the confusion is the issue and that (especially as a principal) undermining the school in any setting would be cause for termination if it is substantially disruptive.  This only makes sense.  I too enjoyed the conversation, and I'm glad law is not my forte or livlihood.  You guys are just way too smart for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to both Jon and Justin for clarifying for me.  I agree that the confusion is the issue and that (especially as a principal) undermining the school in any setting would be cause for termination if it is substantially disruptive.  This only makes sense.  I too enjoyed the conversation, and I&#8217;m glad law is not my forte or livlihood.  You guys are just way too smart for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin B.</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 13:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-281</guid>
		<description>Right, we can leave Garcetti. It is a problematic case to be sure and I don't think we know its full implications yet. But, I will say Marshall, under my interpretation of Garcetti, it is quite possible you could be fired for a conversation in the convenience store depending on the circumstances (I think that is especially true if you are a principal). We don't know for sure yet but in just writing a new edition of Martha McCarthy's textbook, that is sort of the interpretation of Garcetti we put in there.

But, I think this speaks to the confusion that exists right now regarding teacher speech. I don't think anyone REALLY knows what is going on. Each time a court looks at this issue right now, they have to figure out just how far to extend Garcetti so it is sort of a guessing game except in a few Circuits that have already decided the issue.

Enjoyed the conversation though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, we can leave Garcetti. It is a problematic case to be sure and I don&#8217;t think we know its full implications yet. But, I will say Marshall, under my interpretation of Garcetti, it is quite possible you could be fired for a conversation in the convenience store depending on the circumstances (I think that is especially true if you are a principal). We don&#8217;t know for sure yet but in just writing a new edition of Martha McCarthy&#8217;s textbook, that is sort of the interpretation of Garcetti we put in there.</p>
<p>But, I think this speaks to the confusion that exists right now regarding teacher speech. I don&#8217;t think anyone REALLY knows what is going on. Each time a court looks at this issue right now, they have to figure out just how far to extend Garcetti so it is sort of a guessing game except in a few Circuits that have already decided the issue.</p>
<p>Enjoyed the conversation though.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Becker</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-280</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 02:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-280</guid>
		<description>Putting the Garcetti case aside for now (b/c it bugs me and b/c if it's being interpreted as broadly as Justin suggests, I think it's hugely problematic)...If we're analyzing this as a free speech issue, the legal standard is not simply a nexus.  The "expression" must be disruptive to the school environment for the employee to be "punished."  So, Marshall, you can have all the conversations about school at the convenience store you want.  But, if you speak on "a matter of public concern" and that expressive activity ultimately results in disruption to the school setting, you could be in trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Putting the Garcetti case aside for now (b/c it bugs me and b/c if it&#8217;s being interpreted as broadly as Justin suggests, I think it&#8217;s hugely problematic)&#8230;If we&#8217;re analyzing this as a free speech issue, the legal standard is not simply a nexus.  The &#8220;expression&#8221; must be disruptive to the school environment for the employee to be &#8220;punished.&#8221;  So, Marshall, you can have all the conversations about school at the convenience store you want.  But, if you speak on &#8220;a matter of public concern&#8221; and that expressive activity ultimately results in disruption to the school setting, you could be in trouble.</p>
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		<title>By: Marshall</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 02:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-279</guid>
		<description>Justin

If you have a conversation at the local convenience store about your school or district, does that met the criteria?  Is there a nexus based on that medium?  I'm still stuck on using that as a comparison to expressing opinions, asking questions, and clarifying through edublogging as well.  I don't really see that there is a lot of difference between my opinion orally or in black and white (or digital images).  Other than proof/evidence in a litigious situation, why would it matter?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin</p>
<p>If you have a conversation at the local convenience store about your school or district, does that met the criteria?  Is there a nexus based on that medium?  I&#8217;m still stuck on using that as a comparison to expressing opinions, asking questions, and clarifying through edublogging as well.  I don&#8217;t really see that there is a lot of difference between my opinion orally or in black and white (or digital images).  Other than proof/evidence in a litigious situation, why would it matter?</p>
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		<title>By: Justin B.</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-265</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 16:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-265</guid>
		<description>Scott, I agree with Jon that the line is NOT that clear here. What you are doing on Dangerously Irrelevant, Scott, is part of your teaching, is it not? You consider it part of your job, right? I certainly do because I use my blog as part of my classroom instruction and encourage my students to use it to find current events and links to other legal sources. My blog is part of my teaching, my service, and my research (which speaks to a different post by Jon).

I don't see this any differently than any other off-campus speech case, and I don't think the courts do either. If there is a nexus to the school and to instruction, then the school has the ability to regulate. Since most of what our edubloggers say online does relate to the school, then it is fair game. If it is truly off campus then sure the school has no place regulating, but I would venture to guess that at least 1/2 of what edubloggers do meets the nexus.

So, in those situations where there is a nexus, the school can regulate unless there is a reason it can't, such as the First Amendment. But, the default position is regulate so we have to do the First Amendment analysis which I think pretty much starts and ends with Garcetti these days, online or offline.

Now, there are lots of questions that we don't know answers to here and why I think this would make a nice law journal or ed. journal article. First, what part of the blog counts in creating the nexus? If you have 300 posts and 8 directly relate to the school, are all the posts deemed to have a nexus? So, do we consider the blog as a whole or individual posts? Second, should different types of blogs be treated differently? Blogs are sort of a catch all medium and just as we would treat a newspaper editorial differently than a diary entry and differently than a professional journal article, perhaps we should be treating blogs differently since the medium can accommodate all those different types of expression.  Third, is a blog part of your instruction? If you look at Mr. Williams 6th Grade Math (http://mrwilliams.edublogs.org/) that is clearly a teaching blog and should probably be considered part of his job since parents and students are his chief readers. But, compare that to The Daily Grind (http://ahighcall.blogspot.com/) in which the author even says at the top of the page, "The thoughts expressed here are my own and not intended to represent the school or district I work for" and that might be a different picture. Plus, does that disclaimer even mean anything? Should we all be running disclaimers?

Anyway, there are lots of questions here, but the question of whether or not blogging can fall under the regulatory arm of the school is pretty much answered in my mind in the affirmative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I agree with Jon that the line is NOT that clear here. What you are doing on Dangerously Irrelevant, Scott, is part of your teaching, is it not? You consider it part of your job, right? I certainly do because I use my blog as part of my classroom instruction and encourage my students to use it to find current events and links to other legal sources. My blog is part of my teaching, my service, and my research (which speaks to a different post by Jon).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see this any differently than any other off-campus speech case, and I don&#8217;t think the courts do either. If there is a nexus to the school and to instruction, then the school has the ability to regulate. Since most of what our edubloggers say online does relate to the school, then it is fair game. If it is truly off campus then sure the school has no place regulating, but I would venture to guess that at least 1/2 of what edubloggers do meets the nexus.</p>
<p>So, in those situations where there is a nexus, the school can regulate unless there is a reason it can&#8217;t, such as the First Amendment. But, the default position is regulate so we have to do the First Amendment analysis which I think pretty much starts and ends with Garcetti these days, online or offline.</p>
<p>Now, there are lots of questions that we don&#8217;t know answers to here and why I think this would make a nice law journal or ed. journal article. First, what part of the blog counts in creating the nexus? If you have 300 posts and 8 directly relate to the school, are all the posts deemed to have a nexus? So, do we consider the blog as a whole or individual posts? Second, should different types of blogs be treated differently? Blogs are sort of a catch all medium and just as we would treat a newspaper editorial differently than a diary entry and differently than a professional journal article, perhaps we should be treating blogs differently since the medium can accommodate all those different types of expression.  Third, is a blog part of your instruction? If you look at Mr. Williams 6th Grade Math (http://mrwilliams.edublogs.org/) that is clearly a teaching blog and should probably be considered part of his job since parents and students are his chief readers. But, compare that to The Daily Grind (http://ahighcall.blogspot.com/) in which the author even says at the top of the page, &#8220;The thoughts expressed here are my own and not intended to represent the school or district I work for&#8221; and that might be a different picture. Plus, does that disclaimer even mean anything? Should we all be running disclaimers?</p>
<p>Anyway, there are lots of questions here, but the question of whether or not blogging can fall under the regulatory arm of the school is pretty much answered in my mind in the affirmative.</p>
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		<title>By: Marshall</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-278</link>
		<dc:creator>Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 13:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-278</guid>
		<description>Is not the reason for a limitation on teachers the fact that they have an overwhelming influence on those in the classroom or under their tutelage?  Is not the fear that personal preferences and opinion become the curriculum?  If so, there is legitimate concern for keeping that out of the classroom.  I believe that Scott clears up the when and where this influence can be appropriate.  He as my "teacher" has a level of control that he does not as a "collegial blogger" or member of the community, correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is not the reason for a limitation on teachers the fact that they have an overwhelming influence on those in the classroom or under their tutelage?  Is not the fear that personal preferences and opinion become the curriculum?  If so, there is legitimate concern for keeping that out of the classroom.  I believe that Scott clears up the when and where this influence can be appropriate.  He as my &#8220;teacher&#8221; has a level of control that he does not as a &#8220;collegial blogger&#8221; or member of the community, correct?</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Becker</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-277</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 13:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-277</guid>
		<description>Yes, Scott, that's a good point.  The Connick-Pickering (and maybe Garcetti) standard is for free speech cases.  I would add, though, that this gets muddled where a teacher blog is part classroom space, part personal space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Scott, that&#8217;s a good point.  The Connick-Pickering (and maybe Garcetti) standard is for free speech cases.  I would add, though, that this gets muddled where a teacher blog is part classroom space, part personal space.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott McLeod</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott McLeod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 11:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-276</guid>
		<description>Jon and Justin, it's important to make a distinction between ACADEMIC FREEDOM (what gets said in the classroom) and PUBLIC SPEECH (what gets said outside the classroom). You're calling the latter the former. Different legal analyses!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon and Justin, it&#8217;s important to make a distinction between ACADEMIC FREEDOM (what gets said in the classroom) and PUBLIC SPEECH (what gets said outside the classroom). You&#8217;re calling the latter the former. Different legal analyses!</p>
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		<title>By: Justin B.</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2008/05/08/blogging-and-freespeech/#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 16:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-275</guid>
		<description>Preach it Brother Jon. I could listen to it all day and twice on Sunday.

But, that's what appears to be happening. When I tell my students they just sort of sit and stare at me, like .... "what?"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Preach it Brother Jon. I could listen to it all day and twice on Sunday.</p>
<p>But, that&#8217;s what appears to be happening. When I tell my students they just sort of sit and stare at me, like &#8230;. &#8220;what?&#8221;</p>
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