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	<title>Comments on: Bummer Boy takes on Gladwell, Part 2</title>
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	<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/</link>
	<description>“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”  Albert Einstein</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel Rezac</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1983</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Rezac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 03:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1983</guid>
		<description>Sylvia-

Some folks go to church every Sunday to listen to what they know is nicely delivered bad data, in hopes that they can achieve good data. I&#039;m not one of those folks, but I understand the mindset. I think many folks do need to listen to that nicely delivered bad data, unfortunately. 

Can a sponge think? 

I don&#039;t know if I&#039;d use the term dissenter. Since so many folks I talked with found joy in bashing Gladwell at NECC, it seemed like the dissenters were those that agreed with him. 

DR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sylvia-</p>
<p>Some folks go to church every Sunday to listen to what they know is nicely delivered bad data, in hopes that they can achieve good data. I&#8217;m not one of those folks, but I understand the mindset. I think many folks do need to listen to that nicely delivered bad data, unfortunately. </p>
<p>Can a sponge think? </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;d use the term dissenter. Since so many folks I talked with found joy in bashing Gladwell at NECC, it seemed like the dissenters were those that agreed with him. </p>
<p>DR</p>
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		<title>By: sylvia martinez</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1982</link>
		<dc:creator>sylvia martinez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 03:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1982</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m not sure this is an anecdote vs. research/statistics issue. I think it’s more about logic, empiricism and expertise.&quot;

Perhaps. But it also nicely illustrates the bind we are in. Gladwell is a good storyteller. He publishes books that sell lots of copies. He therefore is an attractive keynote to conferences. A &quot;name&quot; brings in crowds. No conference organizer in their right mind wants to have a keynote who is accurate, logical, backed by research but won&#039;t pull in the crowds.

People who hear the keynote believe that the good story represents valid thinking in the area. If it&#039;s entertaining, they may also think about hiring him for their next event. The cycle continues, reinforcing the keynote&#039;s expertise in the subject, when actually, his expertise is in good storytelling.

Rational voices of dissent get blamed for &quot;bashing&quot; the keynote, or hear that even if their objections are valid, at least it gets us talking. Do we really need such an excuse to get us talking? Do we really need to listen to nicely delivered bad data to start to think about good data?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m not sure this is an anecdote vs. research/statistics issue. I think it’s more about logic, empiricism and expertise.&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps. But it also nicely illustrates the bind we are in. Gladwell is a good storyteller. He publishes books that sell lots of copies. He therefore is an attractive keynote to conferences. A &#8220;name&#8221; brings in crowds. No conference organizer in their right mind wants to have a keynote who is accurate, logical, backed by research but won&#8217;t pull in the crowds.</p>
<p>People who hear the keynote believe that the good story represents valid thinking in the area. If it&#8217;s entertaining, they may also think about hiring him for their next event. The cycle continues, reinforcing the keynote&#8217;s expertise in the subject, when actually, his expertise is in good storytelling.</p>
<p>Rational voices of dissent get blamed for &#8220;bashing&#8221; the keynote, or hear that even if their objections are valid, at least it gets us talking. Do we really need such an excuse to get us talking? Do we really need to listen to nicely delivered bad data to start to think about good data?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Rezac</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1981</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Rezac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 02:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1981</guid>
		<description>I never disagreed that studies don&#039;t exist in isolation, but I think Gladwell&#039;s smart enough to know what he did as a prod for more research on the topic. 

Besides we&#039;re just talking academic achievement here. I think Gladwell also suggests that the shear size (which may correlate with age) of older kids in the classroom has advantages that maybe haven&#039;t been measured yet. Surely sports is one of those advantages, but being chosen for other opportunities is definitely an area that I would suggest does offer advantages. 

I&#039;d love to see representative data on tech educators. I think it would make me sad, but I&#039;d love to see it. 


DR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never disagreed that studies don&#8217;t exist in isolation, but I think Gladwell&#8217;s smart enough to know what he did as a prod for more research on the topic. </p>
<p>Besides we&#8217;re just talking academic achievement here. I think Gladwell also suggests that the shear size (which may correlate with age) of older kids in the classroom has advantages that maybe haven&#8217;t been measured yet. Surely sports is one of those advantages, but being chosen for other opportunities is definitely an area that I would suggest does offer advantages. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to see representative data on tech educators. I think it would make me sad, but I&#8217;d love to see it. </p>
<p>DR</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Becker</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1980</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 02:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1980</guid>
		<description>Dan, Dan, Dan...

The 4th grade achievement point is one of Gladwell&#039;s worst.  It is exactly where Gladwell is guilty of selection bias by citing one study and using it to make a point.  Gladwell uses Bedard and Dhuey&#039;s work to assert that kids who enter school at an older age than their grade-level counterparts have an achievement advantage in 4th grade.  OK, but what about the greater body of research on this issue.  The following paragraph comes directly from an article by Lincove &amp; Painter (CITATION: Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis, Vol. 28, No. 2, 153-179 (2006))

&quot;There are many studies that test the early effects of age at school entry on student achievement in a single school or school district. The results, which are not generalizable to the population as whole, are ambiguous. Generally, studies find that younger kindergarteners have an academic disadvantage (Carter 1956; Miller 1957; Green &amp; Simmons 1962; Dickinson &amp;
Larson 1963; Hall 1963; Davis, Trimble &amp; Vincent 1980; Langer, Kalk &amp; Searls 1984; Shepard &amp; Smith 1987; Sweetland &amp; De Simone 1987; Cameron &amp; Wilson 1990; Jones &amp; Mandeville 1990; Bickel, Zigmond &amp; Strayhorn 1991; Crosser 1991; McClelland, Morrison &amp; Holmes 2000; Stipek &amp; Byler 2001; Datar 2003). However, longer range studies show this gap shrinking in upper elementary school years (Miller 1957; Davis, Trimble et al. 1980; Langer, Kalk et al. 1984; Jones &amp; Mandeville 1990; Bickel, Zigmond et al. 1991; Crosser 1991). A recent review of studies of age at school entry concludes that any achievement gap closes by the third grade (Stipek 2002).&quot;

Studies rarely, if ever, exist in isolation.  One of the hallmarks of social science is that research builds upon prior research, sometimes through replication and sometimes as branches of previous work.  In other words, one study is typically part of a larger body of research.  Gladwell fails to mention the other studies, probably because they don&#039;t advance his point.

Now, you&#039;re assertion that &quot;most of us tech educators work in the richest districts...&quot; is worth exploring.  I&#039;ve long wondered how representative the ed. technorati are of the population of the U.S. as a whole.  I suspect you are right, but I&#039;d love an opportunity to collect some data.  Unlike Gladwell, I like to have multiple sources of evidence as warrants for my knowledge claims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, Dan, Dan&#8230;</p>
<p>The 4th grade achievement point is one of Gladwell&#8217;s worst.  It is exactly where Gladwell is guilty of selection bias by citing one study and using it to make a point.  Gladwell uses Bedard and Dhuey&#8217;s work to assert that kids who enter school at an older age than their grade-level counterparts have an achievement advantage in 4th grade.  OK, but what about the greater body of research on this issue.  The following paragraph comes directly from an article by Lincove &#038; Painter (CITATION: Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis, Vol. 28, No. 2, 153-179 (2006))</p>
<p>&#8220;There are many studies that test the early effects of age at school entry on student achievement in a single school or school district. The results, which are not generalizable to the population as whole, are ambiguous. Generally, studies find that younger kindergarteners have an academic disadvantage (Carter 1956; Miller 1957; Green &#038; Simmons 1962; Dickinson &#038;<br />
Larson 1963; Hall 1963; Davis, Trimble &#038; Vincent 1980; Langer, Kalk &#038; Searls 1984; Shepard &#038; Smith 1987; Sweetland &#038; De Simone 1987; Cameron &#038; Wilson 1990; Jones &#038; Mandeville 1990; Bickel, Zigmond &#038; Strayhorn 1991; Crosser 1991; McClelland, Morrison &#038; Holmes 2000; Stipek &#038; Byler 2001; Datar 2003). However, longer range studies show this gap shrinking in upper elementary school years (Miller 1957; Davis, Trimble et al. 1980; Langer, Kalk et al. 1984; Jones &#038; Mandeville 1990; Bickel, Zigmond et al. 1991; Crosser 1991). A recent review of studies of age at school entry concludes that any achievement gap closes by the third grade (Stipek 2002).&#8221;</p>
<p>Studies rarely, if ever, exist in isolation.  One of the hallmarks of social science is that research builds upon prior research, sometimes through replication and sometimes as branches of previous work.  In other words, one study is typically part of a larger body of research.  Gladwell fails to mention the other studies, probably because they don&#8217;t advance his point.</p>
<p>Now, you&#8217;re assertion that &#8220;most of us tech educators work in the richest districts&#8230;&#8221; is worth exploring.  I&#8217;ve long wondered how representative the ed. technorati are of the population of the U.S. as a whole.  I suspect you are right, but I&#8217;d love an opportunity to collect some data.  Unlike Gladwell, I like to have multiple sources of evidence as warrants for my knowledge claims.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Rezac</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1975</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Rezac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 22:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1975</guid>
		<description>I was at NECC and personally, it&#039;s becoming popular to bash the keynoter at any of these things. The first thing I do before I jump into something like this is take a step back before the hounds jump in. 

There was a lot to take away from Gladwell&#039;s book Outliers, and personally, the biggest thing as an educator that jumped out at me was cutoff dates. The definition of success? I think it&#039;s pretty clear that a dollar amount goes with that, though I think there&#039;s nothing wrong with questioning if that&#039;s right or not. I just don&#039;t think it gets you very far in America to question folks&#039; capitalistic tendencies especially when most of us tech educators work in the richest districts. 

But I thought that it was very fascinating to see that older 4th graders score higher in math than younger 4th graders and that this can be traced all the way back to when they enter kindergarten. Take into mind the fact that many districts in America are now not allowing any early entry into kindergarten, and this says a whole bunch about who we are giving &quot;special services&quot; too or who we are calling gifted.

What Gladwell may very well have done is spark the fire for more research, which is only a good thing. If he&#039;s got us asking questions, then there you have it. What I would have liked to see is the story of a successful father or mother, and how many hours they actively put into their raising their kids. No dollar amount equivalent. 

DR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was at NECC and personally, it&#8217;s becoming popular to bash the keynoter at any of these things. The first thing I do before I jump into something like this is take a step back before the hounds jump in. </p>
<p>There was a lot to take away from Gladwell&#8217;s book Outliers, and personally, the biggest thing as an educator that jumped out at me was cutoff dates. The definition of success? I think it&#8217;s pretty clear that a dollar amount goes with that, though I think there&#8217;s nothing wrong with questioning if that&#8217;s right or not. I just don&#8217;t think it gets you very far in America to question folks&#8217; capitalistic tendencies especially when most of us tech educators work in the richest districts. </p>
<p>But I thought that it was very fascinating to see that older 4th graders score higher in math than younger 4th graders and that this can be traced all the way back to when they enter kindergarten. Take into mind the fact that many districts in America are now not allowing any early entry into kindergarten, and this says a whole bunch about who we are giving &#8220;special services&#8221; too or who we are calling gifted.</p>
<p>What Gladwell may very well have done is spark the fire for more research, which is only a good thing. If he&#8217;s got us asking questions, then there you have it. What I would have liked to see is the story of a successful father or mother, and how many hours they actively put into their raising their kids. No dollar amount equivalent. </p>
<p>DR</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Becker</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1971</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 02:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1971</guid>
		<description>Sylvia, a while ago, you were bashing Twinkies.  Now cherry KoolAid.  Sheesh.

I&#039;m not sure this is an anecdote vs. research/statistics issue.  I think it&#039;s more about logic, empiricism and expertise.  

I&#039;m going to come off as a complete snob here, but...my experience working with lots of adult learners is that there is a general inability in the population to understand basics of logical reasoning.  So, when people read a book like Outliers, they read each chapter as an interesting story (which, even I believe, they are).  But, they are not necessarily able to see the forest from the trees; i.e. they&#039;ve lost focus on the larger thesis/argument.  They don&#039;t bother to examine the logic and how the chapters relate to each other.

Empiricism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism)...I&#039;m not entirely in love with Don Tapscott&#039;s books, but at least he&#039;s arguing from data (actually, a huge dataset).  Also, I think the best books are based on ethnographic methods; authors who immerse themselves in the culture and ideas about which they write.  Gladwell probably never met Chris Langan, let alone spent enough time with him to be able to draw conclusions from his life story.  And, do you think he&#039;s ever been to a KIPP school?

Finally, expertise...whatever happened to &quot;consider the source?&quot;  Gladwell tells lovely short stories.  That&#039;s his expertise.  I&#039;ve said enough about this in the post; he lives as a contradiction to his own (flimsy) thesis.

Thanks for weighing in, all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sylvia, a while ago, you were bashing Twinkies.  Now cherry KoolAid.  Sheesh.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure this is an anecdote vs. research/statistics issue.  I think it&#8217;s more about logic, empiricism and expertise.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to come off as a complete snob here, but&#8230;my experience working with lots of adult learners is that there is a general inability in the population to understand basics of logical reasoning.  So, when people read a book like Outliers, they read each chapter as an interesting story (which, even I believe, they are).  But, they are not necessarily able to see the forest from the trees; i.e. they&#8217;ve lost focus on the larger thesis/argument.  They don&#8217;t bother to examine the logic and how the chapters relate to each other.</p>
<p>Empiricism (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism</a>)&#8230;I&#8217;m not entirely in love with Don Tapscott&#8217;s books, but at least he&#8217;s arguing from data (actually, a huge dataset).  Also, I think the best books are based on ethnographic methods; authors who immerse themselves in the culture and ideas about which they write.  Gladwell probably never met Chris Langan, let alone spent enough time with him to be able to draw conclusions from his life story.  And, do you think he&#8217;s ever been to a KIPP school?</p>
<p>Finally, expertise&#8230;whatever happened to &#8220;consider the source?&#8221;  Gladwell tells lovely short stories.  That&#8217;s his expertise.  I&#8217;ve said enough about this in the post; he lives as a contradiction to his own (flimsy) thesis.</p>
<p>Thanks for weighing in, all.</p>
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		<title>By: sylvia martinez</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1969</link>
		<dc:creator>sylvia martinez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1969</guid>
		<description>I guess most people would agree that (for whatever reason) stories, metaphors and anecdotes make our reptilian brains happy.

So here we are at this place where research is viewed as boring and not really useful in the &quot;real world&quot;. In the meantime, anybody with a ripping yarn gets attention and acolytes.

Gladwell&#039;s book is to education as cherry KoolAid is to cherries. But people love the KoolAid...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess most people would agree that (for whatever reason) stories, metaphors and anecdotes make our reptilian brains happy.</p>
<p>So here we are at this place where research is viewed as boring and not really useful in the &#8220;real world&#8221;. In the meantime, anybody with a ripping yarn gets attention and acolytes.</p>
<p>Gladwell&#8217;s book is to education as cherry KoolAid is to cherries. But people love the KoolAid&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: A. Mercer</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1968</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Mercer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1968</guid>
		<description>@sylvia, I think we like to learn by metaphor and that&#039;s based on teaching language learners and the little brain theory I&#039;ve picked up from that. It&#039;s how we contextualize. That means that stories work better raw numbers. Also, what would raw numbers about teacher &quot;effectiveness&quot; tell us? What numbers would they be? What would they mean?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@sylvia, I think we like to learn by metaphor and that&#8217;s based on teaching language learners and the little brain theory I&#8217;ve picked up from that. It&#8217;s how we contextualize. That means that stories work better raw numbers. Also, what would raw numbers about teacher &#8220;effectiveness&#8221; tell us? What numbers would they be? What would they mean?</p>
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		<title>By: Anne V (whynot88)</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1966</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne V (whynot88)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1966</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it in Pink&#039;s &quot;A Whole New Mind&quot; that he says that &quot;we&quot; love to hear our information in story form? Gladwell is simply following his directive...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it in Pink&#8217;s &#8220;A Whole New Mind&#8221; that he says that &#8220;we&#8221; love to hear our information in story form? Gladwell is simply following his directive&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: sylvia martinez</title>
		<link>http://edinsanity.com/2009/07/07/bummer-boy-takes-on-gladwell-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1965</link>
		<dc:creator>sylvia martinez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 06:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edinsanity.com/?p=342#comment-1965</guid>
		<description>So how do you reconcile the fact that people seem to find this type of anecdotal evidence more compelling than valid research? Is it that humans are more wired for stories than statistics?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So how do you reconcile the fact that people seem to find this type of anecdotal evidence more compelling than valid research? Is it that humans are more wired for stories than statistics?</p>
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